Help! Fish are dying... what did I do wrong?

[ReneM]

Well here I go again.... grrrr!

First, let me say I got into SW kind of by accident about a year ago. I lost several beautiful fish to a dying anemone and then to ich that followed that stressor. Finally, a week or so ago, I decided that I did not have the funds to continue SW, and sold everything in my SW aquarium.

My FW - I have had this for about 15 years. It had a filter, and off and on I would use an undergravel air stone. The set up didn't change much, although I got a new filter about two years ago. It was 20 gallon (rectangle) and I have never had issues with anything. I have to say that for many of those years I didn't do the water testing, etc. I kept it clean, changed filters, watched the water level and the temp. That was it, and my fish have never had disease or any kind of mass die off. (I did start doing water testing on the FW though after getting my SW tank)

Well, when I sold the SW fish I wanted to move the FW to that tank. It's a 29 gal hex and I thought would be much better for the FW fish than the 20 gal. I washed out the tank thoroughly (no cleaners, etc just a good scrub and several rinses). I dried it, moved everything over (including about 70 percent of the water from the 20gal FW), adjusted my temps, then put in my fish.

My fish - They are/were - a black moor (5inch - now dead), a blood parrot (4-5inch - suffering, in stress) and a pleco (6-7inch). The moor had what looked like swim bladder problems for the past year or so, but he could always right himself when needed, and in spite of looking a little silly sometimes, seemed to be just a little disabled. I tried swim bladder cures (peas lol), but it didn't change anything with him. Since he didn't seem to be in stress, I just kept an eye on him.

*(I suspect what I did was cut way down on the oxygen levels... but not sure. Since I still have two fish left, I am hoping that I have fixed this but need your opinions)*

Ok in the new setup, I did overfill the tank a bit and the top of the filter (it is one that hangs inside the tank, not out the back) is completely covered with water. I also have a glass top that sits very close to the surface area. I do keep the front glass section off during the day, only covering it completely at night (fear of jumping fish ha). I had an air stone in for a few days at start up, but I didn't really have anywhere to sit the pump. So, since in the past an air stone didn't "seem" to matter, I took it out. Water quality is good except the nitrates are high (always seem to be, despite water changes) and the pH is too low.

Not sure if I already put this in here.. but I moved the fish about 1.5 weeks ago into the new set up. About four days ago, the Moor started acting more "disabled" than usual. He started floating more at the top, then eventually on his side, and his body curled. His breathing didn't seem stressed, but of course this looked horrid. Since he has had this "problem" for a long time I just thought "well, whatever it is, it's finally progressing". I looked up fish euthenasia Friday evening and was ready to go buy clove oil yesterday morning. But when I work up, he was gone.

This morning I wake up, and my parrot is at the bottom of the tank in the back, face down, behind a decoration. I moved him out of there with a net to the front. Then thought, well maybe it is the oxygen level. So I rigged something for the pump and put in my large air stone (air comes out of about six inches of it - my pump isn't strong enough to move it through all of it). Then I moved him by it, over it, a few times using the net.

That was an hour ago. his breathing seems regular, he is now in the front, still at the bottom, but tail down and head up. he has not swam around at all, but I "think" he looks less stressed. Not sure, I get so darn upset about my fish it might be wishful thinking.

Anyway, there is nothing else that looks like disease going on here, no contaminants from the air have made it into the tank, etc...

Do yall think the tank water was too high and therefore they weren't getting oxygen? Could it have anything to do with this being used as a SW tank for a while before? In the case of either of these, is there anything more I can do? Or could this be something completely different than what I am thinking, and what should I do?

Thank you thank you thank you for any and all help!
Rene

[Sandy]

Rene, don't know that I can help much. But I wouldn't think changing from salt to fresh would have anything to do with your problems. It may be a air issue, Gerwin will need to chime in on this one. Another issue maybe,,,, drastic temp. change when you had to add more water and moved the fish over??? I'm sorry, I wish I could be of more help. Hang in there!

[ReneM]

Thank you for the input!

No, the temp was adjusted, and they had been in there a least a week before the moor started getting worse... I hope I started the air in time.

Hey guys if it is air, how long should it take for my parrot to come around? He is still the same...

I forgot to add, the pleco seems just fine...

[ReneM]

I checked the ammonia, it was too high (3ppm). I got sidetracked on the oxygen theory and forgot to check that.

So..... I added to the tank Tetra Easy Balance with nitraban.... supposed to reduce nitrates and stabilize everything(but ammonia), then five tabs of Ammonia Clear... all this after a 20 percent water change... temp was dead on...

He was getting a little worse before I did this, was on his side. But he's still hanging in there... he did attempt once to move a little, which he has not done at all since I found him this morning.

Does anyone know (if the nitrates/ammonia were even the problem) how long it will take to see a difference - that is if I'm not too late?

Thanks!
Rene

[ReneM]

So far it seems the products I put into the tank are not lowering the levels (per test strips). It has been about two hours....

He is now lying on his side at the bottom, Occasionally he is flittering around some, which is different from before (before he was just still). But he is on his side. It does look like he is breathing a lot harder. Whether by accident or on purpose, he has placed himself next to the air stone...

Anyone out there? Help!

[bluwtr]

Sorry about your problems, but I can't really help either. Only things I can come up with is low D.O. or you stirred up the substrate when you switched tanks and that released H2SO4. For the D.O. lower your water level some and make sure you've got good water flow. Keep the airstone going as this will defo help with gas exchange. As far as the hydrogen suflide; your tank doesn't have a smell of rotten eggs does it? If not, good. That means no H2SO4. If it does, you need to do a massive water change.

I have heard of and seen parrots do goofy stuff like you describe (tail stands, etc.), so it may just be its behavior, but breathing harder and being by the stone doesn't sound too good to me.

Another way to increase your DO level is to lower your temp. Cooler water holds more O2.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Best of luck.

Wes

[ReneM]

No rotten eggs.. smells like that healthy algae smell...

I now have about two inches from the water line to the top of the tank. The filter is now dropping the water a little onto the surface. Air stone going (thinking of adding another one. It's small, but hey who knows). I've never lowered the temp before. Is there a process to that?

Why does this crap always happen on Sundays? (to me at least - when Gerwin is closed lol)


Thank you so much for the help! I will keep thinking of ways to get more oxygen in...

[ReneM]

Well, he died...

still, I have the pleco in there, who so far looks absolutely oblivious to all of this... I am worried though that whatever got them, will go for him next.

Thought.. could the Moor have poisoned the tank somehow (he died while I was asleep, so could have been in there dead up to eight hours) ?? And that maybe led to the parrot dying?

And, if the pleco keeps going as he is... how long should I wait before I can feel comfortable that the tank is safe for new fish? (assuming everything looks good on test strips)

Thank you!
Rene

[Gerwin]

sorry for my late reply *( i run another business all to gether on Sundays)
take the pleco out and put him in a bucket or such with the tank water he is in now, add the airstone, then do a 100% hso change on the tank,make sure you gravel vac the substrate, put in twice the dechlor amount recommended. Adjust temp of tank to get to 78-80, then float the pleco in a bag in clean tank that is dechlored and temp adjusted for about 15 min and let him out, do not add any of the old tank water. DO NOT change your filter cart. leave the old nasty thing running, at most a mild rinsing. Then keep testing the next several days, all should be fine.

Now the why's?
I am not a scientist, nor a biologist but I have seen many things and this is a common occurrence when a tank does not get proper regular water changes, ph declines as organics decompose over time in a closed system, if you over fed this drop in ph actually can bind up toxic ammonia, now we get a wild hair to do a water change as we see its been way to long, of course you use tap water which may have a high ph, it actually can free up the toxic ammonia and releases in the water column killing fish, or at the very least you can drive your fish in to ph shock from the rapid change also killing fish.
of course this is all a guess based on the info, maybe bring me a h2o sample,
now this is a great lesson for me to speak on, do not take this personal Rene, but maybe we can teach others from your mistakes
Moral here is no matter how good things look, a box with water and animals in it pooping day after day, you feeding day after day...just what do you think is going on with all the stuff? imagine if I locked us in the basement no toilet and just kept throwing old seafood down there with you, eventually we aint gonna be to happy or healthy I preach it everyday, and at least once a month I hear the same story " I never do any of that and my fish do fine, they live like 2 years" do you know they could live 5-15 years? if you keep the tank clean
Plecos can surface breath btw so it explains his surviving while others are dying*

[ReneM]

Thank you for the reply... I will do what you suggest with the pleco and hopefully everything will even out... I can't get to you right now (work schedule conflicts with your schedule lol).

As for water changes, I guess I have not been the best with water changes on the FW tank. Honestly, before getting the SW tank, I went by what pet store told me eons ago on FW, never seemed to have any issues (even ich), never knew I needed to test water, etc. It wasn't until I got the SW and did research on that that I realized the FW tank needed far more maintenance than I was giving it.

I hate to admit it, but I do hope you are right (and I was bad lol)... because I do think I am getting the hang of all this, and want to be this a lesson learned that won't happen again. Thank you so much for the kindly brow beating lol...

And no worries on Sundays, everyone needs a life and other interests lol.... I just want to know why my emergencies always seem to happen when you're doing all that lol!

[ReneM]

Oooo another question... Hope I'm not showing my "dummy" here...

When I start doing regular water changes, does this now mean that I have to match temp AND pH (after the declor etc)?
And if the pH doesn't match, then what do I do to raise it/lower it in the water I'm adding? How exact a match does this have to be too?

I feel like such a dunce!

[Gerwin]

once you get on the program and the water is normal for the area, ph should not be a issue if you are just using tap water and not trying to raise discus or such. I would attempt to get the water with in a degree or 2 on small 10-20% changes but as the water changes become 30-50% you should be with in a degree

[ReneM]

So ... this begs another question (Sorry, pH shock is very new to me)

If my tank's pH is fine, everyone in there is fine... and I get a new fish, what if the pH the newbie was in is more than 2 off of my tank? or 3? or?
Is this why - if you do everything else right like floating them 15min etc - is this why new fish who die within a couple hours or so, die?

Thank you again! you are sooo awesome!


(btw... since meeting you, every time I meet someone with a nice tank, they all point to you!)

[bluwtr]

When you are floating the bag you are only adjusting temperature. Once this is done (15min or so), you then need to do a drip acclimation. You can do this a couple of ways. One, if you have access to an IV bag that is refillable you can add tank water to that and let it drip for 15-30 minutes (what I do and never had a problem). If you can't do this just leave the bag floating and add a little tnak water to the bag every couple of minutes. Once the water volume has basically doubled or 30 minutes max has elapsed, pour the fish and water into a net--chunk the water; dump the fish. One thing to remember is that when the bag is opened ammonium is converted to ammonia due to atmospheric CO2 so you have roughly a 30 minute window to work in. I say 30 minutes, but you should be well done before then; the 30 is the top end.

HTH

[ReneM]

I always did the drip with my SW fish.... guess it just didn't sink in that it was for pH... Thank you


Still... do yall think this is why most/many fish that die soon after being put into a tank, die? (if temp is fine)